Welcome to the Sword of Sure Podcast. Where doubt looms, fear whispers, and the only way forward is through. I'm Samar Carbo and if you've ever felt like you're just sort of sure about what you're doing, you're not alone. This is where we face the uncertainty. Push past the hesitation and keep going anyway way. So take a breath, step in, and let's move forward together. Hello and welcome to the Sword of Shore podcast. In case you missed it in the beginning, my name's Samar Carbo and I am super excited to bring this conversation with Heather Boyd to you. She'll introduce herself, but she is an occupational therapist who saw a better way of doing her work. But before we get to that, if you have a story of imposter syndrome or self doubt or both, shoot me an email at sort of surepodmail.com let's have a listen.

My name is Heather Boyd, I'm an occupational therapist from Ontario, Canada and I focus on baby sleep and supporting very tired parents through baby sleep, through that lens of attachment and connection and looking at sleep as being a developmental process rather than something we need to teach.

I really like that. Clearly you've had some practice in explaining that, but obviously this is a matter that's pretty close to my heart. I have now a three month old. Yeah, a three month old. And I have a two year old, almost three year old, who I just had to convince to take a nap before this.

That doesn't surprise me.

Uh huh. Wonderful spirited young girl. But how did you get started with this kind of work?

My first really had a challenging relationship with sleep, shall we say? I avoid calling him a bad sleeper because I am sure he was doing the very best he could under the circumstances. But it left me. Despite having been an occupational therapist working with babies from zero to three my entire career, I was not prepared for the parenting piece and I was not prepared for the sleep piece. And so I had already done a lot of work figuring out how sleep works, trial and error with a lot of the more conventional methods that are out there, none of which sat well with me. And so by the time I had my third, it was clear to me that I wanted to know how is it that we can support babies with development? That had been my entire career was development. How can I apply that to sleep? How does development impact sleep? What does the development of sleep as a milestone or as a representation of what's happening in the nervous system, in the brain? How does it all fit together to actually give parents who do not want to do separation based sleep, you know, cry it out or extinction method. How can we understand sleep well enough and understand babies well enough to actually get to a point where sleep's not going to be easy? As you know, even, you know, the change between three months and two years is significant, but sleep is still not mature yet at two years. So how can we make it easier so that parents are feeling less burnt out and less at the end of their tether and babies are getting the kind of environment they need?

Yeah, I feel that in my bones. I, my wife and I retried so many things. It was, you know, just support the child fully and then I have so many other things to do. I own all these businesses through all fault of my own and I have calls and meetings and things to take. Okay, so we've got to try the cry it out method. And we tried it and it crushed us both. We couldn't do. Was just heartbreaking to hear our, our months old child, now almost three, just wailing in there. And it was because I am like a very rule followy person. I definitely was able to try it for a couple of days, but after that it just, it just didn't work. My wife is crying while she's working on her laptop. It just, we felt awful. So I, I feel absolutely the parents don't want to try the cry it out method because we're no longer those types of people. I think in maybe the 50s or 60s we were those types of people because we thought that was the only way. But now we're so much more relational than we'd ever been before and we can't do that. So I guess in all of this the question then becomes why was this the trajectory that you chose? Was it because people are so different or was it just that people came to you clamoring for another answer?

For me, it was because I knew that what I needed when my child was having trouble with sleep was someone that was not solely focused on fixing sleep if it wasn't actually a problem. I mean, it felt like a problem. I was exhausted. Sleep did not look like it was supposed to. In quotes, you know, we're told like when babies are supposed to sleep through the night, that you shouldn't feed them to sleep, you shouldn't rock them to sleep. And none of that seemed to be a fit at all for me and my son. And so I started thinking, gosh, I can't be the only one who's looking to have. And this is the way I put it with one of the sleep coaches I had reached out to in desperation. I think by the time my second was born, I'm like, I don't want to repeat this ever again. So there must be something I can do to make this not be so hard. Not realizing that, first of all, every kiddo is so different. And second of all, my, you know, my understanding of sleep was still through that fix it mentality. Right? You know, as someone who's a business owner yourself, you know a lot about solving problems. And so then we become parents and we think, oh, yeah, I can be in problem solving mode. I can fix this. The fact is, development isn't something to fix. It's something to support so that it can unfold in its own time. And I think what really drew me to it was knowing that if this is broken, like, if sleep is broken, if something is wrong, then help me fix it. But if it's not something fundamentally wrong with sleep, if this is, like, normal hard versus, like, really hard and falling apart, then tell me how to make it easier. Like, there's gotta be a way that without trying to change who my son is or what his natural sleep or physiology is, there's gotta be a way for me not to feel so desperate about this right now. And so I was drawn to both. Both sides. Like, how do we make. How do we understand the physiology of sleep? How does it actually mechanically work so we can fix it if it needs fixing? And then how do we just feel better about how this all unfolds? Because I feel like so much of the pressure on tired parents is to fix a problem that might not even be a problem. And then so much energy, like precious energy in those first few years get used on worrying and on trying to.

Fix something that I'm just realizing as we're talking here, it's so rare that I get to talk to someone whose essentially work is supporting parents. And that is. That is what you do, and clearly, brilliantly. So I've got to ask. When you were on the journey of having your own children, did it just feel like a natural progression? It was just, this is who you are now, or was it.

I'm shaking my head as you say that, Marcus. I. You know, when I was working in infant development, at one point I decided, oh, you know what? I don't need kids. My life is full. I get to work with other people's babies. That's enough for me. I don't need to become a parent. But then, you know, life unfolds, and I had a Very strong draw to become a parent. But, oh, my goodness. I think there's. There's two key things that come up for me when I think about my parent, my journey into motherhood, and it was one, I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I could support other parents all day, but when it's my own baby, I felt lost. And I knew enough that it kind of in some ways mixed me up about what? You know, what's normal, what's not normal? When can I. When should I seek support? Is this something I should worry about? Or is it something that a first time mom just simply worries about and we just need to let it go? So, no, it did not come naturally to me. I mean, I suppose on many levels it did. Like, I. I enjoyed mothering, as challenging as it was, but it certainly didn't feel like anything in my career was supporting me other than not being particularly worried about him rolling and crawling. I did not worry about the gross motor. I didn't worry so much about the milestones. I celebrated them, but I didn't worry about them. I suppose I got a little bit more joy out of what I call those micro milestones, those things that don't make it to the baby book that let you know what is coming developmentally. You know, when you look at how a baby is moving and all that prep work that they're doing before they actually roll. And so I did get to savor that because I knew what to look for. That was great. But parenting in general and how to adapt to life with a baby, it was. I had these plans, Samara, that when I was on maternity leave, I was like, I've never in my life not been employed or in school. Like, I. What am I gonna do all day? I'm. I'm gonna learn guitar. I'm sure I will be like a amazing guitar player after a year. Well, no, I did not learn all.

The time in the world. Right?

So. And I still remember one day, you know, he fell asleep, he was in the crib, not in my arms. Like, well, I have some free time. I'll just, I'll just walk to the corner store for like a chocolate bar. And then I thought, no, no, I have free time, but it's free time in my home. Like, this is different. Yes, I do what I would like with my time as long as I am close by. So, no, in short, it did not come easily in a lot of ways. And, and in other ways it did. It did flow nicely, but it, I don't think a Career in supporting parents or in working with babies does very much for preparing us for what it's actually gonna look like.

That is brilliantly said. And I think it'll be a huge relief for anyone listening who is in a similar field and also felt lost because you're in the brain world, you get it. And yet it was tough. So what do you do to sort of stave off those feelings of sort of self doubt in those moments to, you know, put habits in place or anything for your story?

Well, I am a bit of a voracious reader and a bit of a geek for knowledge and data. So early on in parenting, I did a lot of reading for my own parenting. I read a lot of books, took courses. I felt like I was like getting a PhD in parenting and so that, you know, books can support or undermine us depending on what they're giving us. But I found that by reading a lot, it gave me the whole broad trajectory that I could then look at it as a smorgasbord of how do I want to approach parenting? How do I want to get through this challenge? What. What kind of lens do I want to look at this through? And so that helped me because I could just pick and choose from that smorgasbord instead of simply doing what everyone says you do or what I went into parenting thinking we were going to do. Because I think, and I don't think experience into parenthood is unique. Once we become parents, all those ideas that we had about what this looks like and how we would be as parents, you kind of throw it out the window or at least put it on a very, very rugged wash in the washing machine and see what comes out at the end. Because so much changes once you're actually looking at this baby and thinking, oh, yeah, what is really important to me here, what actually works from all the stories I've heard about how you're supposed to parent, which, which things work for me and which things don't. And so I still, yeah, I still remember the books that I pulled off the library shelf that when I read them I was like, oh, there is such a thing as attachment approaches to parenting. Like, I didn't know. I want to know more because I read it and I thought, you know, when you read something and you're like this, I didn't even know I needed to read this. This is what I've been looking for without knowing it had a name. And so that, that did. That was the way that I staved off that. But I would also add That I was also lucky enough to meet a parent who was parenting through a more connected attachment lens. And she had a baby that, in hindsight, was not much older than my baby. But she seemed, you know, three months feels like forever in the life of an infant, because so much so, I don't even think there was a three month difference. But she was way ahead of me. Her baby was ahead in development, so I knew what was coming down the pipeline. She felt more confident in her parenting because she was a few months ahead. And so to have her be someone that I could spend time with, a. I was left isolated because we know parenting so much shifts that we can feel quite lonely and quite isolated. And her wisdom and her perspectives just gave me more to take in in terms of how to parent in a way that really aligned with my. My values.

Yeah. And that is as the. The. The longer I do this show, the more I see how much community comes into play when. Whenever we're feeling like not enough for a situation because we'll see that we're not so different from other people. But there are so many things we can learn. And I think learning a little bit helps us understand that we can learn a lot and we can get so much better at whatever it is that we want to do. Thank you for sharing that. That's incredibly helpful. And I do want to. Oh, sorry. Were you going to say something?

Well, yeah, I wanted to add that whole idea of community, because part of it is it feels like whatever burden that we're carrying. And I know today we're talking about parenting, but we could pick anything that as human beings, we are trying to navigate. And when we're in a community, it's like all that burden somehow gets spread out, kind of like butter on bread. Like, it just spreads out. And to the point where I remember inviting women over who were in my yoga and baby class. Like, that was the only thing that I had on my calendar other than lots of diaper changes and laundry and the whole bed. And I invited them over. And normally, like, pre parenting, I'd be like, okay, like, people are coming over. This is mildly stressful, but I'm looking forward to it. Well, this was like. It was amazing. It was a way to relax, a way to put my attention not 100% on my baby in my arms, but to be communicating with other people. And it was the first time that he fell asleep without me, like, wishing and praying that he would fall asleep. He fell asleep in my arms because my nervous system was connected and relaxed with the Others that were in the room, and I looked down, I couldn't believe that he had fallen asleep without me working so hard on it. And so I just think how valuable. I think, yeah, having people over. I've got to kind of clean up the floor a little bit, but, oh, my goodness. You get a group of people who are connected in some way or who are curious about each other or kind to each other, and the burden just gets, I don't know, spread out. It was quite amazing.

Oh, I love that. Curious and kind. That is such a helpful thing in community when we. When we really get right down to it. But I do want to ask. Let's say there's somebody who is wanting to get where you are either in parenting or in therapy, and. And they're just kind of stuck at the beginning stages or not starting because of the imposter syndrome that creeps up. What advice would you have for that person?

I would say to think. And one of your previous interviews is now popping into my head because I have listened to your podcast somewhere, and so I won't paraphrase that, but I. I'm seeing a parallel here. When we aren't sure where to go, sometimes we just don't go anywhere. And yet if you kind of at least have some idea that you want to move forward towards something, find some little way to step forward. Maybe it to pick up a book that you know you're going to take your chance on flipping through. You never know what's in those covers that could really change what you think, or take a course or join a group or, you know, research a particular program. Like, I'm an occupational therapist. There aren't that many of us compared to, you know, the volume of many other therapists or physiotherapists, and I happen to choose that. But to even just take a step towards doesn't mean that's the only path you end up. Like, goodness. I had no idea when I went into OT school that I'd end up working with babies. And I didn't know when I started working with babies that I would then work specifically with sleep. And so just to find one way to move forward, it doesn't narrow your options, it opens them up. The options aren't necessarily going to land in our lap. We have to get to them by moving forward. And I think good things happen when we do that.

I wholeheartedly agree. And as we kind of close out here, is there a particular thing that you haven't gotten to share on the podcast? Maybe is sharing about your podcast or anything like that that we haven't gotten to that you'd like to.

I'd love to share about my podcast. When I'm interviewing on a podcast, I completely forget that I have one. It's the Baby Sleep Connection podcast, and it's a bit of a play on words or double nuance for the word connection. It is about what is connected to sleep, that it is the nervous system. It's your environment, it's the parenting approach you bring to it. It's what your baby brings to sleep, their temperament, their sensory needs. But it's also about using connection as the foundation for a calm nervous system that can fall asleep. We don't fall asleep when our nervous systems are really aroused, really out of whack. We need them to be calm to fall asleep. So the Baby Sleep Connection is my podcast. I've been doing it for about a and a half and I would say if people are, because I don't think he's as well known, but he's really the foundation of a lot of the work that I do. There's a developmental psychologist out west in British Columbia, Canada, Gordon Neufeld, who his institute offers such beautiful, beautiful courses, short ones, long ones, that I often recommend to my clients when things are feeling really sticky in terms of understanding their child's teaching, temperament or parenting. And so I would put in a plug for Gordon Neufeld, too.

Perfect. And I'll make sure that he makes it into the show notes as well. Well, thank you so much, Heather, for being here. It has been an immense pleasure and it's been incredibly informative to have you here.

Lovely conversation, Samara. I'm glad that we got to have.

Me too. Bye now.

Bye.

Awesome conversation with the great Heather Boyd. I hope you all got something out of it. I know I did. And if something in this podcast reached out to you in any way, I encourage you to share it with a friend. And go ahead and click that five stars so that we can share this with more people in more places. Also, if you have a story of imposter syndrome or self doubt, shoot me an [email protected] I am so happy to hear from you. Well, that's it for me today. Be good to yourself and others. Later days.