Welcome to the Sword of Sure podcast. Where doubt looms, fear whispers, and the only way forward is through. I'm Samar Carbo, and if you've ever felt like you're just sort of sure about what you're doing, you're not alone. This is where we face the uncertainty. Push past the hesitation and keep going anywhere way. So take a breath, step in, and let's move forward together.

Hello and welcome to the Sword of Shore podcast. In case you missed it in the beginning, my name is Samar Carbo. I am so glad you're joining us this Friday because we've got an awesome show for you. We've got Justin Mezzan of the Queer Change Makers podcast. Sure, he'll do great at introducing himself, but before we get to that, if you have a story of imposter syndrome or self doubt, shoot me an email at sort of surepodmail.com. let's have a listen.

Hello, I am Justin Mezzotin. I am a software developer, community builder, and, I don't know, lover of fun. Fun and bad jokes. We love a bad joke. Yeah, I'm in Washington, in the Washington D.C. area and I do a number of things in our community. My background's in tech, so I do a lot of tech events and tech community events. And I'm also part of the queer community, so I also go to a lot of queer community based events and on the best weeks, I get to do all three at the same time. So glad to be here.

Super glad to have you. As you're going through Seventh Day Adventist sort of coming out, what was your internal conversation?

When I first started exploring queer community, uh, there were some people that were like, oh, f. The Bible, forget family, right? Like, do you be like, just go. And I was like, I. It's easy for you to say that, but like, I can't. That's not. Not. I couldn't. I wasn't able to do that. Mine was more. Am I, am I okay? Am I wrong? What does this mean? What will family think? What will my grandmother say? How. What does this even look like long term? Because one of the challenges about growing up in a religious environment or any environment is you all grew up there, right? Me and my brothers, we all grew up in the same place, right? We all went to the same churches and the same things. So, like, every argument they have being like, here's why you're wrong, Justin. Like, I already had. Like I already had, right? Like I was there at the same time. We read the same books. No one ever Added more to the conversation. All they did was, this is the normal. And it's like, hey, guess what? That's been me already, right? Like, I have it and then I have books on the other side and I have books and a lot. Like, there was one time my brother was visiting and they stayed with me for. One of my brothers stayed with me for a couple days and like, on my bookshelf, he saw like the like eight queer Christian books that I had of like, Stranger at the Gate or Torn or like Radical Belonging. Like, there's a bunch of different books. And then later he was talking to me and he was like, I didn't realize that, like, huh, that's something you had to deal with that. We just thought you were good. We just thought you, hey, hey, you made a decision and there you go. And there's not that other side. So, yeah, so I did have to go from a place where am I wrong? And like, make peace with my difference as not being wrong, but just being different. And, you know, still there are times talking to Adventists and families that are still like, oof, I can't believe I used to believe some of some of these things and don't treat people similar ways, but I give myself a little bit of grace so that I can give them a little bit of grace. And then I like, go back to my better communities that are fun places to be where people are worried about more specific and important issues that affect not only us, but all of our communities.

Awesome. So what was the, like, internal conversations, like, self talk around all that as. As you were going through it?

So at first, well, a lot of it was, how do I find the permission? Right. If someone's going to come at me with the usual Bible verses or whatever, like, how do I respond to them in ways that they'd understand? And then also, like, what will my grandmother think? Is like one of those questions that was coming. And I was reading this book, Stranger at the Gate by Mel White, and like, written 20 years before me, probably maybe more. And like, he had that same line. He was like, oh, but if I come out, like, what will my grandmother? What would I say to her? So I feel like that little, like, wait a minute, that's sort of my story. But yeah, you're white, you're an older white Catholic, and I'm, I'm a. I'm a black Seventh Day Adventist from the city. So very different experiences. But, like, that resonance was helpful and like, the conversation for me as well was just like, how do I make it make sense. So I don't really know how I eventually answered it, but I do think being in community and seeing my queer friends all up and down the spectrum of how out or in the closet they were or just like flamboyant or feminine or whatever, and it was like, oh, but I love them, right? So, like, yeah, if I could love them, then I should probably love myself too. Like for wherever I am on that same place. Yeah. Yeah. So I think some of those early friends that I made along the way who had conversations with me who was like, hey, come out with us. And I'm like, I'm going to church tonight. I don't go out on Friday nights or something else. They're like, all right, cool, Justin, we'll see you later. See you later in the week or something. I think them giving me grace and space to be in community and to accept me on my own journey, I think was definitely. It helped with the self talk because I got to like, love the people around me, which reflected parts of myself that also needed that same love.

Oh, man, I. I love that so much because there is that aspect of I am the community. If I can love them, then why can't I find that same thing for myself?

But.

And of course, you know, the answer is who we were raised to be. We were told that. That it's easier to love someone else than ourselves because of course we were. Everybody else is judged by their actions. We're judged by our intentions. And. And what would you say that's an external thing, finding love for yourself at the time? Or was that an internal journey that you embarked on?

It was definitely more external. Like, so I'm. I'm the third of five boys, grew up in New York City, live in the D.C. area, and like, church was one of those weekend long things at times. So just like being around people in community was just like, that's just the water I drink, that's the air I breathe. So, like, yeah, like, there's never been a time where I was able to really separate myself from everything else. Right. I think as I've gotten older, I've been able to take more time for myself and see some of the things that make me different or unique. But I think just being in all. Being in group environments basically all the time, I am like, I am part of the community. The community is part of me, and we're all working together. So it definitely started for a lot of it has been external. And I guess in recent years it's. How do I not rely on Community too much. But also like think of the individual and have some of that own that personal growth. That's even one of my edges right now where it's like, how do I going to disagree with these people? I agree with. Yeah, but like, and we'll still be there. You like that movie? I hated it for this reason. And, but like, let's still go and like have dinner because yeah, you don't have to agree on everything and that's.

Such a powerful place to be. And when you know you're solid with your community and you can disagree on things. And that's something I think that's really missing in our society today. The ability to disagree agreeably. And so I, I hear these, the, these places you've been, you know, the, the, the Seventh Day Adventist, you, your community, obviously your podcast. But you, you are a black queer male. There is a sense of otherness there. And so how do you go from, how do you, how do you go from this to being such a pillar, a change maker to steal from your podcast title in your community?

Time and yeah, so much time. So much. Yeah, like, let's say the journey that I've been on has been almost 20 years. Not quite yet, but almost that. And I think when I first started, like I said, it was like, let me find people outside of my communities because I. Well outside of my initial communities and then finding those friends and seeing much bigger ways to see the world and to even see religion and spirituality, I think that that sort of kicked it off. And then also there was this thought that, like, what if my community fully rejects me and I have to like start from zero? So post college, it was like, you know what? Let me figure out, let me make friends that I didn't go to college with. Let me go out. Where can I volunteer? Like, what groups are happening? I did tech. Like what tech related events are happening for professionals, what career events, what, like volunteering things were. So it was just like being a part of community and like seeing what's out there and showing up because I had time and nothing else to do. So you might as well have fun. And if you choose the right event, I'm like, even if I don't meet anyone there, even if it's not the grit, like, whatever, even the people aren't friendly. Like if I like the thing, then I at least I can say I did it. You know, volunteering at like a food bank. Hey, I might make a new friend out of this. Maybe not, but at least I can say I did something yeah.

And the worst that'll happen is you fed people.

Yeah, yeah. I was like, worst case scenario, I put some good out into the world. That's good. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. So I think there's been that and then just being part of different community groups over time. So like, I've been here in D.C. my, I don't know, 15 plus years. And sometimes people like, how do you know? Everyone just. I'm like, I don't, I'm just. I just haven't moved. So I remember when that person was here the first time. They left for years and then came back. And like sometimes a new sport group or something pops up and I'm like, you know, let me try it out. I got nothing to lose. And you might make a new friend or two or learn you don't like a new sport. Which, yeah, it's gonna happen.

Which is fun. Fun and exciting to learn that.

It's one of those things where at first it was like, I can tolerate myself or accept my sexual orientation. There's this like bare minimum and then there's like being grateful for it and like seeing, here's how this helped me, right? Like me being, me being a black, gay, queer person in an Adventist school. I know what it's like to feel othered for multiple reasons. So when I'm in different communities, when I'm hosting an event or at an event, there are times where I'm like, that person looks like they're in the corner by themselves for no reason. Let me go say hi to them. Because I know what it's like to feel othered. I know what it's like to be sort of different. And also being in some tech spaces, there's not always a lot of queer people or black people, to be honest. So the more upfront I am, it's like, hey, I see you. You see this rainbow shirt? I got my. I got something. Being like, I'm this and I'm like, I got the hair and I'm black. So like, sometimes it's hard because people will remember me because I stand out in some of those rooms. But it's good, it's like, it's, it's great. And I like to like most of the communities that I still stay a part of or things I show up to. I'm like, we all belong here. So how can I try my best to help other people in that room also feel like they belong? Because it's, it's. That's not always easy for some. And I think that's one of the strengths that I have, like, from the beginning, I'm like, all right, I'm going into this gay space. I don't know anybody. No one's gonna talk. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't even drink. I'm not even 21 yet. But, you know, we're just gonna go in and we're just gonna talk to two people. We're gonna just try one thing. And like, now when I talk to friends, sometimes I'm like, hey, just go say hi to that person you're interested in. Like, I could never, like, come on. If everyone says you can't, then no one's gonna meet each other. But, like, I guess it helped me keep putting myself in further, in harder, more complicated situations because, like, I'm just used to that now.

The, the, the beauty of that, because while in social situations, I can be. If I'm hosting, that person who goes up to the person in the corner. If I'm not hosting, I am trying to be behind that person, maybe sink into the drywall. And, and it is wonderful to hear that when you're out in this sometimes confusing, sometimes just othering space, you are that light in the darkness. Because people sometimes just need that, just that little push, and they'll become the life of the party. So that, that is so cool.

It's, it's, it's a, it's a fun time. It's a fun time. And sometimes, like, that's how you, you want people to come back, right? Like, I, I, I've been in some places, and they're certain groups that, like, you know, maybe not the friendliest, but they're, like, good groups. They're just like a bunch of introverts, a bunch of tech introverts who, like, focus on the technology and forget about people who use it. So it's like, all right, how do you. Hey, like, sometimes I make this joke. I'm like, all right, if there's, like, I'll take, like, 10%, I'll be okay. 10% of the people here are just bad or, like, terrible, but 90% aren't. So if you talk to someone who's terrible, you're actually lucky because you, you, like, you should play the lottery because you're, like, doing the 1 out of 1 out of 10. You're doing 1 out of 10. Like, but everybody else is there and just find ways to help people, like, be engaged and get there. And then I've also learned that introverts exist, and sometimes they are in the corner by themselves because they want to be. And they're recharging. And like, I have a couple friends who, when I host a party and I see them like, you good. You good. You make a little eye contact. And they're like, yeah, just did some. Yeah, walk around the block. I'm like, all right, you got this. That's all good.

That's really good. So as we're. We're closing down here because we're talking. We've been talking longer than the podcast is going to be. I. I want to ask for sure, I ask this of everyone if somebody wanted to be in your place or perhaps, you know, maybe they want to get into a tech space. Maybe they want to start a podcast. Maybe it's just a young or not so young queer person who doesn't believe they can enter into any community that. That, you know, bolsters these things or makes them feel proud of who they are.

What would you say? That is a good question. It's what people say when it's a hard question and they figure out an answer. But I think what I would say is, okay, no one determines who belongs in most spaces. So if you have a reason to belong in that space or you want to belong in that space, like, that's. You get to decide that and then show up in that way. And then the other side of it is, if you do show up in that way and you do get rejection, confrontation, or some kind of pushback, then that space may not be for you right now. Like, it's. It's that when I talk to a friend who's at a bar and they're trying to. They think someone's cute and they're going for them. I'm like, just go say hi. If you say hi, you automatically have bonus points. And if the person is, like, rude that someone said hi to them or is like, not about that, I'm like, you just got rid of. You just got rid of a good one, a bad one, Right? Like, they. Right. If someone's going to be like, how dare you say hi to me? It's like, that sounds like somebody I don't need to talk to. Because that's what are we doing, Right? Yeah. So, yeah, I think you bring your own belonging.

Much easier that written down somewhere. You bring your own belonging.

I love that that hurts. Because I'm like, I think of the times when I need to hear that for myself. Even still today, there are times I'm like, oh, I should have worn a suit to this place. But like you bring your own belonging. I'm gonna have to journal on that.

But that's, that is good.

And there's a community for everyone. So like find, find your community. Find the thing, think about the thing that you enjoy and like find the other people who are doing that. I'm in a city, so it's much easier. But like, if you're out and about, like, that's what the Internet is good for at best. Finding people who are really into these really specific things. Find the people you can laugh at, laugh with, nerd out on random, anything and just remind yourself, like, oh wait, I, I like this. I thought I was the only one that liked this book. But you're like, no, an author wrote it, right? And you got it. So like there's probably other people who got it too. And like, you just gotta figure out who and where they are and know that you belong there. And then just like, have fun, have fun, tell bad jokes. That's.

And that's the thing, right? And I, I talk about this all the time, mostly with my wife. And like people I know personally, very seldom do I say things on this platform that other people haven't said. But it is so good when somebody gets your jokes. They don't get you unless they can get your jokes. There was one more thing that I do want to have in the podcast and that's when you know anything you didn't get a chance to talk about or something you want to talk about a little more. You just free for all, whatever there is. If we covered everything, great. But the floor is yours for that.

I guess. One thing I can mention is, yeah, I do have a podcast called Queer Change Makers, interviewing queer people telling their journey, their story into what they're up to these days. So there's been artists, coaches, entrepreneurs, people who work for different non profits or organizations and it's just fun to get this set of variety of perspectives of queer people and how they're out there already changing the world. So that's, that's fun.

That's fantastic. I love that. Well, thank you so much, Justin, for being on the sort of. Sure. Podcast. I'm really glad we had you here.

It's been, it's been a pleasure. I enjoyed this very much and this, I love having new podcasts to listen to and I look forward to hearing some of the other people and how sort of.

Sure they are. Yeah, it's really well put.

It's been fun. Take care.

I want to thank Justin once again for being on the sort of sure podcast. What an awesome conversation. A couple of things I want to highlight that Justin said before we get out of here. No one determines who really belongs in a space. We decide where we belong. And of course that 1/ real huge gem we bring our own belonging. This is a masterclass in creative space making and I hope you got something out of it. I know I did. Once again, thanks so much for joining us this week on the Sword of Sherpod. If you have a story of imposter syndrome or self doubt, shoot me an [email protected] I can't wait to hear from you later days.

Sam It.