Welcome to the Sword of Sure podcast. Where doubt looms, fear whispers, and the only way forward is through. I'm Samar Carbo and if you've ever felt like you're just sort of sure about what you're doing, you're not alone. This is where we face the uncertainty. Push past the hesitation and keep going anyway way. So take a breath, step in, and let's move forward together. Hello and welcome to the Sort of Shore podcast. As you may have heard in the beginning, my name is Samar Carbo. I am so excited to bring you this conversation with Ibadianex Perillo. He is the host of the Candid Frame podcast and so many other things that I'm sure he'll tell you all about. This is a first for the Sword of Sure podcast. This is a two part episode, but don't worry, you're not going to have to wait long. The first episode is coming out today, Friday and the second part is going to come out on Sunday. So I'm going to make sure these happen really closely together so you folks get the entire conversation. There are so many good nuggets that I just need you guys to hear so much more of it from the incomparable Mr. Pirello before we get started. If you have a story of imposter syndrome or self doubt, shoot me an email at sort of surepodmail.com I can't wait to hear from you. Let's have a listen.

Well, my name is Ibadianx Perela. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, it is my distinct pleasure.

I am a multi hyphenated person. I guess at this point I'm a photographer, I'm a writer, I am a podcaster, husband and a dog owner. The priorities will shift depending on the day. But most people probably know me at this point because of the podcast which I have been doing since 2006, which is the Candor frame where I've been interviewing photographers. I've gotten. I've lost count, I think it's 642 interviews, something like that in the can or something. I I only look at the number when I'm posting the next one, but I've interviewed hundreds of photographers. Some of them are like legends that many people have heard many times before. Other people are lesser known but no less deserving of attention, which was the whole point of the podcast. And yeah, I've been lucky since picking up a camera when I was 10 years old that photography has always been a part of my life, both as a hobby Initially, and then professionally worked at Nikon. First job out of college, working technical support. There was a 1-800-line. People used to call to get questions answered about any Nikon equipment going back to the late 50s. And I was one of several people there to answer questions. And then after that I was an associate editor for several photo magazines, Outdoor Photographer and Digital Photo Pro magazines. And then I went freelance and then I started writing books on photography, teaching workshops, and then continuing with the workshop, I mean, continuing with the podcast. So that sort of encapsulates the last 30 or 40 years.

So I want to talk a little bit about where you started now, back when you were at, of course, started with photography. So back when you were at Nikon, was that intimidating when there were all these questions being fired at you and you just had to kind of figure it out?

Well, the harder part was just coming to grips with at the time, you know, 50 years worth of photographic gear, because people were not only asking questions about the most current equipment, they'd be going back to equipment they bought in the 70s or the 60s, and in some case the late 50s. I got diagnosed with ADHD about five years ago. So it was always a struggle to get things done and not make mistakes. The nature of just ADHD is that you're prone to making mistakes because of distraction and stuff like that. So when it came down to writing an article and trying to make it as error free as possible, it really took a real concerted effort to do that. And sometimes it was issues, not so much about the content, but sometimes it was just about grammar, you know, sentence structure, the points. And sometimes the stress of that was, was the most difficult part about it. I, I rarely had any problems with meeting deadlines. You know, if you give me a hard deadline, okay, that's what I need, I can get it done. If you give me an open deadline, we got trouble. Yeah, but you know, I could just. I would feel very anxious as I was writing something and wanting, and my tendency was just to get it out, get it sent it down the, send it down the hall. But inevitably it would get sent back to me because I didn't read it as carefully. And the person who was the copy editor, she did not like that I was making more work for her. After a while I learned how to just slow down enough to go through it over and over again, despite the anxiety that was feeling to the point that it wasn't going to be completely error free, but it would be good enough that I wouldn't get stuff sent back to me like that had I understood that, oh, I got adhd, and that's why that's happening. I did not know that that's what was going on. I just knew that I felt a lot of anxiety when I was. Especially when I was writing these things. And I really couldn't understand why it was. But I was just trying to find workarounds so that I could get the. Get the work done. And I don't write as much anymore because all the magazines I used to write for are gone. But I still write, and I still. Those feelings still come up, but I understand why they're there. So I'm able to diminish the anxiety that I'm feeling and knowing and understanding why it's there, and then just go, okay, just get that crappy first draft out. Don't worry about making it perfect. And then, you know, slowly processing it until I get to the point where I feel like it's as tight as it can be and then. And move on. So I think it would have been. Had I been diagnosed earlier, I could have saved myself a lot of personal grief because always, like, beating myself up as to why I couldn't. Why it had to be so difficult for me in my head and emotionally.

In the past, while you're doing your magazine, you're juggling three and all these things, Was it that you had to put a whole bunch of habits in place to sort of keep yourself on task, or was the deadline enough?

The deadline was enough for me. Yeah. The dead. The hard deadline was always good enough. It's like, okay, all the articles have to be done by a certain date and be submitted. There was no holding it over till next week. It was just like. So I would just be, like, pounding keys to make that happen. And it was very rare that I would turn in something late.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because I just. That was like, for me, was a hard stop. I can't miss mine deadline. So even when I was working for other people, I tended to deliver stuff early.

Very uncommon for a writer.

So I just didn't know. I just especially I knew how I wrote papers in college, like, the day before or the night. You know, I'm writing all night and delivering it in the morning. Right. Yeah. Want to put myself through that on a regular basis professionally. So as much as possible, I try to get that stuff done sometimes a week, two ahead of time, just like, okay, knock that out. Because there were a certain number of articles that I knew I had to deliver in a given month. So I knew I had to pace myself. I couldn't procrastinate to the point that I had seven articles that are due in one week that would have been impossible for me to do.

Yeah. And it would turn into this big thing that's entirely separate from your job. That's just anxiety sitting by itself.

Yeah. That's been the biggest, the biggest struggle has been contending with the anxiety. Right. Because I, because I've been dealing with it all my life. I didn't understand what it was. And then I was with a counselor and I was. And she said, give your thought that you might have adhd and just like, what's that? And then got diagnosed with that and major depressive disorder. And I found that out. It was such a relief because now I understood why I struggled and why I was unable to do things as simply as I thought other people did things and why it was hard for me to do even sometimes the most basic thing. But once I understood, oh, that's just the nature of my brain and no fault of mine. It's not that I'm a bad person or a stupid person or anything like that. It's just like, I just, in some ways it's a hindrance. In other ways, it is a. Definitely a superpower at the same time.

Yeah. Because that hyper focus really gets you in line.

Especially when I'm wielding a camera. Man, I am, I am incredibly hyper focused and I can really parse a scene to the smallest of details, making a composition. And I know that's my ADHD that is allowing me to sort of do that, but in other ways, you know, it's, it's something that I have to surmount in order to sometimes get even the most basic things taken care of, especially things that I'm not really interested in.

That's the big thing.

Especially if it involves a spreadsheet. Man.

The numbers.

Hard stop. I mean, yeah.

So I, I, I asked because the, I'm sure a large majority of listeners are dealing with anxiety around ADHD or not being able to focus or having to have interest. What was your internal conversation around the anxiety? What, what, what did you tell yourself?

Oh, man, it wasn't pretty. It was very ugly. You know, you're a loser. You're a waste of space. You know, you're not worth much of anything. Right. You want to do all these things, but you're not doing the work to get yourself there. You know, there's no, no reason why you're feeling isolated and alone all the time, unable to make real substantive connections in terms of friendships or romantic relationships. So it was like all these things that I felt a failure at just for. Just reinforced on it. And. And, you know, and I was always comparing myself to other people and seeing them being able to do those things, whether it was professionally or with their relationships or with their health or anything like that. And it's like, why can't I do that? And I would initially try and do something, but then inevitably I would stop following through. Right. And doing.

And it starts all over again.

Yeah. And it was. And then being in that loop all the time just fed the. My default of being hypercritical of myself. Right. And because I was doing all this in isolation, I wasn't talking to anybody about it because I felt so much shame about it, because I was always trying to hide the fact that I was struggling in this way.

And the shame is huge for people suffering with this.

Yeah. Yeah. Because you feel like, oh, if I admit it, it's going to get worse because all these people are going to be like, oh, yeah, you are stupid. They're going to confirm that I am exactly what I'm trying to hide, that I am, and it'll be even more difficult and navigate life. But eventually I got to realize that I needed. There are these things I couldn't figure out myself, that my. My own thinking wasn't going to be the solution. So I had to open up and I had to start talking to people and getting. Getting, you know, professional help in terms of counseling, eventually, you know, getting medication to sort of stabilize my brain and also just being more open about struggling if there were things that I needed help on and that I knew that I couldn't do myself. Say, hey, I can't do this. Can you help me? Which was a big, big thing for me to do, because admitting help was admitting that I did not know how to do something. Yeah.

And it's the hardest part of the 12 step programs, too. Oh, admitting that you can't do it yourself.

Right. And the ability to be able to get past that and go, there's no shame in asking for help and admitting that you don't know how to do something. Like, we just talked about spreadsheets or numbers, man. If there's anything that involves that, it's not going to be me who does it, because it's about me and numbers and the spreadsheet. I have tried, and it just. I just go to people, including my wife, who love spreadsheets. It's like, you do that.

Oh, that's perfect.

Yeah.

There's a Spreadsheet person out. Everyone out there who's, who's having a hard time with numbers.

Yeah, yeah. Because I'm one of those guys that has a spreadsheet and puts those numbers and the, you know, the sum is always different every time.

Yes, that's me too.

Keep going and keep going. And I'm driving myself nutty trying to figure out where did I make mistakes. Starting over, still making. And I was like, I was just putting myself through hell and it's just like, it's not, it's not for me to do. I can find somebody else who can do this for me, who's willing to do this for me. And you know, who paying for them to do it is well worth it to me.

Absolutely worth every penny.

Yeah, absolutely.

Get it off our plate.

Hear the numbers, Put it together. Let me look at it. Okay, we're good. And I can move on to the things that I enjoy doing and that I find easy doing. Yes.

And so you bring up the, the anxiety in the, in, you know, your professional life, but do you think that's followed you into personal relationships as well? You brought up your wife and those sorts of things? Does it, does it migrate everywhere or did it everywhere you put it?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pervaded everything. You know, See the, the inability to, you know, be open about my weaknesses, my fears makes it impossible for me to be genuine with another human being.

That is beautifully said.

Yeah. So I had trouble with just friendships and I was completely worthless when it became to a romantic relationship just because I never learned, I never learned what it means to be in a romantic relationship with someone. Right. It's like, it's as simple as you like spending time with someone and you want to do more of that. That, that at its base is what it is. I did not understand that, you know, if I got into a relationship, I was already concerned. But okay, when this person really finds out what I'm really like, they're going to leave. And so that concern about abandonment and insecurity just magnified itself. And of course I self sabotage relationships. And then I was going, what happened? You know?

Yeah, and that is the crux. I mean, people are listening to this podcast, they've heard part of this before because that's the crux of the imposter syndrome self doubt thing. If they really knew who I was, they would not think so highly of me.

Right.

And you'll be found out is another way to say it. And of course everybody's wrong, but our brains can't tell us that we live in here.

No one's. No one's sharing that. Everyone's going through it, but no one's sharing it because everybody's walking around with their own backpack of shame, right?

And every single time we say it, we feel that much farther from perfect. And it's so much harder to get to that first step away from perfect, because no one thought we were perfect to begin with, but we want them to think.

Yes, right. Oh, man. You know, in. I'd say over the last 15 years, I've gotten better about that. To the point now I don't hesitate to admit that I struggle in that way. No, that's great. Because I don't have any shame about it. It's like, I'm not doing anything wrong. I just have difficulty, you know, doing some of those things. And I still feel it, you know, if I. Someone's correcting me at something at work, I feel that feeling. Right? Yeah. Own me. But I. It's still there, you know, like, okay, I know you're there, but I listen to what they're saying, what they recommend for me to do something to improve, and I'll go, okay. And then I do it. And then I kind of let it go where before that would have ruined me for days, right?

Just ruminating, just over and over thinking, how can I do that?

I'm an idiot. They must have make that mistake again, which I inevitably do. It's like, oh, God, I did it again. And then just. I'm going to make mistakes. That's just part and parcel of being human. And all I have to do is, like, own up to it, acknowledge it, and then make whatever change is suggested or recommended in order to, you know, make it less likely to happen again. And then when there's another thing that someone needs to talk to me about, okay, Because I'm okay. It's. It's not a reflection of my value or my worth when I make those mistakes. And if anyone starts wanting to yell and, you know, get. And get really ugly about it at that, I've gotten to the point where I go, oh, if they're going. If they're going that off on me, it has nothing to do with me.

Yes, absolutely right.

Completely disproportional to whatever I've done or said at that point. It's like, oh, that has nothing to do with me at all because it's like, it's disproportionate. Yeah.

It doesn't make any sense.

And then. Then I don't. I don't have the fear of that. You know, I have an emotional distance where I don't all of a sudden feel like it's my. Their reaction is my fault. Yes. Which is what I felt. It's like, oh, someone's angry at me or whatever strong emotion is being directed at me. It's my faul. Because, you know, X, Y and Z. And it's like, no, they could be disappointed in me, but raging at me or any of that ugly, ugly stuff, you know, threatening or stuff like nothing that I've done is deserve, is deserving of that. So I can just kind of take a step back. I'm not going to engage it. I'm like, neither am I going to be defensive about it. Which is another thing I had to learn is not to be defensive. There's nothing to be defensive about. Because as soon as you're defensive with someone who's like that, you're just feeding into that because there's nothing you can say or do that is going to calm them down.

All right, we're going to pause right there for today, but tune in on Sunday for marvelous episode 30 of the Sword of Sure podcast, where you can listen to the final bit of that conversation. Thanks so much for tuning in. And don't forget, if you have a story of imposter syndrome or self doubt, shoot me an email at sort of surepodmail.com I'm excited to hear from you. Later days.

Sam. It.