Welcome to the Sword of Sure Podcast. Where doubt looms, fear whispers, and the only way forward is through. I'm Samar Carbo, and if you've ever felt like you're just sort of sure about what you're doing, you're not alone. This is where we face the uncertainty. Push past the hesitation, and keep going anyway way. So take a breath, step in, and let's move forward together. Welcome back to the Sword of Shore podcast. As you heard in the intro, my name is Samar Carvo and today we have a really cool conversation. We talk with Steve Boland. He is the founder of Next in Nonprofits, a really awesome company that I'm sure he can introduce far better than I can. So we're gonna get to it. But before we go ahead and get started with that, I want you to remember, if you have a story to share, reach out to me at sort of surepodmail.com once again that sortofsurepodmail.com I'd love to hear from you. Without further ado, let's have a listen.

My name is Steve Boldand, I'm the director at Next in Nonprofits. We're a consulting firm in Minnesota that provides assistance to charities and other social good organizations trying to raise money to support the causes that they care about and been keeping us quite busy in 2025. Let me tell you, for the organizations we're serving in these very uncertain times, it's okay right now, but the level of change that's been happening both with foundation givers, certainly government funding partners, some uncertainty that's out there with the general giving public about, you know, gosh, where am I going to concentrate my efforts in when there's so many things happening at the same time? It's a difficult moment right now for organizations that are trying to move forward with really important based work without the certainty of, well, we had this federal grant that was promised to us, so we know we've got this much to work with or the foundation that we're used to supporting us has always been able to help us with this kind of support and now they're rethinking whether their priorities are still the same given all these other changes. So it's a tough time that the folks we're working with right now are doing okay, but that level of just not knowing is really challenging for many community based organizations.

Yeah, certainly. Would you say that this is not a great investment at the moment? Maybe wait it out for a little bit or do you think go with your passion and bite the bullet now.

Boy, that's a tough one. Smart. Because there are. I don't know that there's ever been a great time to commit to this kind of work. Right. There's never been a moment where it's like, oh, it's so easy to get in and everybody wants to spend money on getting good community results happening. So now is the moment. I do think that as you consider how are people overcoming their hesitancy and doing something that's really important to them, it might well be that a difficult time is the best time to get started, to really find where people's commitment to the work is and see where that goes. And then hopefully there will be some stability that will come in the future. But the need is for sure there. The communities that are trying to respond to all these changes need help. There's a bunch of different ways that we can useful and stepping into that space when there's so much uncertainty can be a real challenge. But I don't know that there was ever a great time, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago. I've been doing this work for coming up on 30 years now. And I always sort of think, well, this, this moment of chaos can't possibly be surpassed. This, you know, challenge is never going to get worse than this. And then, you know, something else may come along that supplants that thought and you're like, oh, nope, there was. There's the more difficult thing that did end up happen. So I don't know that I would ever suggest to anybody wait for a moment of calm because I'm not sure we're ever going to have that perfect time.

Now, you mentioned you've been doing this for 30 years. Can we rewind the clock a little bit and see what little Steve. Well, maybe not the little, but younger Steve thought of getting into this work?

Well, it's a great differentiation of what I've been doing for the last dozen years at next to nonprofits, where I stepped out on my own. And that is a challenging thing for people to think about doing. Doing versus being a part of social good movements and nonprofit organizations. And I've been doing that for a much longer period of time. So I went to college thinking I was going to. My undergraduate degree is in political science thinking, you know, that I'd be part of government systems for change and we would improve the conditions of our community and we'd have all sorts of great things happen and this will be the way that I'll contribute. And I did go to work in government for a While I worked for a member of Congress here in Minnesota and felt like sometimes we were part of progress, that things were going well, but eventually did. Did really feel like the frustration of the speed of change and government systems was just not what communities needed. And where else could I be helpful? Where else would I be able to find a place? And I started looking in nonprofit organizations working in charities, and I got staff roles for existing organizations and learned a lot of things and was, I hope, very helpful to those missions. But I changed from staff role to staff role, kind of thinking that this next role will be the perfect thing that will allow me to contribute my best self and do all this great work. And being on staff for just one nonprofit organization, I think eventually became something identified as a real challenge for me, that I seem to do better and thrive more when I've got a lot of different places where I can contribute instead of just one. There's a lot of different missions. And the idea of leading staff positions in nonprofits and starting out to serve them on the outside as a consultant for their work was extremely challenging. It was really hard to think. You know, I'm used to a pretty fixed salary. You know, the check comes every two weeks, and I know what my budget's going to be, and that's great. And when you go out on your own, there's a lot more uncertainty, and that can be very, very difficult. And certainly I don't want to pretend that the first year and a half wasn't a lot of scraping to meet people and connect with them about their work and encourage a relationship where they would hire me to help them move forward. And that's a seriously challenging thing for any individual to step out on their own and do. However, having done it, I can now say that I've been doing this work for a dozen years and counting because this has been that place where I'm like, I can settle here and really feel like I get to stretch my muscles for a lot of good missions, a lot of organizations and learn more about how each of them is doing what they do and share that knowledge around. So it has been a really rewarding experience. But early in my career, it was never a thought like, oh, I'll go, you know, serve several organizations on the outside as a consultant. That wasn't anything that had occurred to me until I kept trying to find satisfaction in job roles and leaving and changing every three or four years.

Yeah, that makes so much sense, and you kind of answered it. But my next question was going to be, where do you get the audacity, you know, was that something for you that was, you know, just. Just that linear that you needed something that was a little bit less structured by somebody else's hands? You just saw the need and needed to fulfill it?

No, I do think that it really was being in roles where, you know, I was responsible to just one board of directors or one executive director or whatever that that structure was like, I had to report through to that structure. And having just the one framework to work within, with its restrictions, was just never great for me. I always was kind of gnawing it. I want to try something new and do something different. And it didn't usually fit with the single organizational purpose that I was, you know, on staff for. And I appreciate what you're saying about, you know, the audacity of this. I. I don't know that I felt like it was audacious at the time. It was just sort of like what I am doing isn't working, and it's not like I'm. I'm leaping forward to this thing that I think is so great, but much more like, why am I never feeling satisfied in the job that I do have? Why do I always feel like there's something else kind of gnawing at the edge? And I don't know that it's was so much. I'm feeling like, oh, I can start a business and build relationships with lots of organizations and help a whole bunch of people. As much as, you know, this role doesn't really fit me, and I have to try something different in order to see what can be more successful. So that discomfort, I think, pushed me a lot more than a feeling of I can for sure do this. I was definitely concerned I would not be able to make a go of it. There's no question about that. If you haven't done it before, stepping out and doing it for the first time, there is that moment of, what if this fails? And, you know, many small businesses do fail. A lot of people do go back onto staff roles after trying this kind of thing. Fortunately for me, it has not, and I'm very excited about that. But there's certainly plenty of places I could look and see that other people have tried things. And why. Why is it maybe going to work here? And I really do think that part of the momentum moving me to try it is like, well, I, you know, I have in the past gotten other jobs when. When things haven't worked out, and if this doesn't work out, I can maybe go back and find a staff position somewhere and understand that at least I tried it. And there's risk there for sure. But it was possible for me to do. And I'm really glad that I did.

And I love that. The way you say it sounds like it's a fulfillment of your potential. And I think there are so many people out there who know that they could do more or want to do more just desperately and don't feel that they're properly equipped to be able to do it. And maybe they're not and they need to learn. But it is lovely to hear that you trained yourself up and you got yourself in a position to do this work.

Yeah. And finding people that can, you know, help you along in the training. It was certainly a big part of those initial pieces. I. I don't know where I got the advice to. To go meet up with a. An accountant. But paying somebody to help me set up the business seemed like a really difficult decision. Like, I don't have extra money to pay a professional to do the incorporation stuff and all the rest of it. But I also knew that I didn't have that experience. I didn't know how to make sure that that was done correctly. So teaching myself sort of. But also learning from people that did know what they were doing and being able to hear those referrals from other people that had made that step forward and finding out after the fact that it really wasn't that much money to pay somebody who knew what they were doing against the amount of time I would have wasted trying to figure it out. And that allowed me to spend my time then trying to build relationships. And the stuff that I did know that I really do have some things to contribute. And that was an important part of moving forward in a different structure where I'm like, I. If I'm going to be acting as a consultant, I need a business entity to do this with. I have to think about how taxes are going to get paid and all those things. So getting some professional advice from some of those areas early on was great. And then, you know, there is a bunch of stuff that you do just have to go learn on your own. And fortunately for me, some of those areas were things I was just interested in anyway in terms of, you know, getting a website up and running and thinking about how we were going to connect with new audiences through email communications and tools like that were things that I'd had to kind of pick up along the way in supporting nonprofit organizations that I had been a part of. So I had some basic understanding of doing those Things. But the other stuff, you know, setting up a business entity and all that was a really good investment to find experts out there where it really wasn't as much money as I feared it would be. And you know, I know that we talk a lot in your podcast about kind of overcoming that fear of, oh my, it's probably going to be really awful. And then you find out, oh, it's, it really wasn't that much money and it's already done now. That person that knows what they're doing already took care of it and I'm moving on. And that was a great realization.

And that, that sort of tension between the not yet and the and having it in the rearview mirror, insane for a lot of people who struggle with self doubt. And I'm sure you know, a million different ways we all struggle with it, but with big self doubt and with imposter syndrome, a lot of it is just being a bad predictor of the future. We don't know what it's going to be like. We just have to try. Did you, did you see yourself there? Because it sounds like you were predicting.

That it would be too much.

You just didn't have a choice but to have the conversation.

Well, I'm not sure that I would say I was predicting it would be too much. I was. That part of the unknown was out there for sure. But. But knowing where I was wasn't working was certainly the motivator to go, well, I don't know what this other thing is going to look like yet. What I did not anticipate at that time was eventually growing to be part of a group of people doing this work. Next to nonprofits now is a team of people. There are seven of us that are now together under this banner supporting nonprofit missions. And when I started on my own, I'm like, okay, maybe I can make enough money to pay me and that would be great. And then I will be able to go try these different ideas and work with a lot of different missions and that will be wonderful. But eventually, you know, the what's the level of success that I might be able to get to? Question came to more than I can do by myself. You know, that there were people that were connecting with me to say, I heard you did this work for this other organization. Can you do something similar for us? And eventually I'm like, I actually, I can't. I don't have enough time just being one person and had to make that decision again of do I go from. I've got a relatively comfortable thing Just being self employed to do, I bring other people in to help this thing continue to move forward. And that was another whole different stage of doubt because now it's not just, you know, if it doesn't work out, I guess I have to go get a job. But you know, if it doesn't work out, then other people have to go get jobs. And that's uncomfortable and challenging. But by that point I really did feel like I'd had enough experience supporting myself for a few years that when I was ready to start working with other people, I do feel confident that we can keep this rolling and keep providing really important services for folks that need it and it will be great. But it is another level again of boy, can we actually hire people and have employees. And yeah, eventually it can get to that too.

That's great. I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing that. Did you find yourself kind of procrastinating hiring because of that barrier?

Boy, that's a good question. I don't feel like it was that as much as it was the trying to scale from 1 to 2 is, you know, 100% increase in costs in a month. And you're like, it was very different when we went from five to six or six to seven, right, where it's a little bit more incremental. But you know, working with a couple of people as contractors first and looking at a part time person first was kind of toes in the water towards the idea of it's a big commitment to bring an entire full time person into your work and growing the connections to have enough work to support that is really challenging. So I'm not so sure. I feel like it was, you know, kind of procrastinating or hesitancy as much as it's like a real good understanding of going from 1 to 2 is big, going from 2 to 3 is a little less big. And of course from 3 to 4 would be a little easier again, but that first, you know, hiring a whole other person is a pretty important step forward and that one was challenging just because it was such a large increase in the amount of connections and output we had to do in a short period of time.

It sounds like it worked out for you though. Is that person still with you or was it sort of learning? Learning.

I, I did hire a couple of part time people that are no longer with me and, and that was a good learning too. To know what level of comfort other people have with a less certain work environment when, when we're bringing people in to be able to maintain those part Time into full time employment things I did go through a couple of folks that I really enjoyed working with, but they just feel comfortable hanging through some of that uncertainty and that changed. So now I think our longest term person has been here for five years. So we do have some people that have been around longer as we've grown. But the first couple of folks, yeah, that doesn't always work out. And then transitioning can be a whole nother challenge of. We were just starting to kind of get some momentum with that one person. Now I got to train somebody else. But I, I do think it's just part of the growth process that not everyone is comfortable with that level of uncertainty in their workplace and it can be challenging. So sometimes they've just got to go to something that feels more stable, even if it isn't quite as good as where they were.

That's really good. I want to ask, do you have any nuggets of wisdom perhaps, or just advice for someone who's not as far.

Along as you are?

Maybe they're thinking about starting their own nonprofit or business or even if they're in the hiring space, Just a piece of advice that would help them along. But they're sort of held up by imposter syndrome.

It's difficult. I think I get the space to feel like, who am I to do this thing? That does feel a little audacious. And it is sometimes challenging to look at other people that have been able to do it and turn that question around a little and go, do they really have something that I don't have? Or they just did it. Is that the thing? Who out there is doing something where I can look at it and go, well, that person clearly has superhuman abilities and they fly. And most of them are people just like you that took the chance. And looking at that example of who else is doing this work that you can see and go, yeah, I can see where I could do what they're doing. It just feels like it's impossible for anyone to do until you look at somebody that has already done it. And then it does become a lot more possible. So I guess I would throw that out there to find an example of someone that you can relate to as a person and going, well, they actually did take that risk and it paid off. It wasn't catastrophic, was even probably pretty good. And maybe that means there's space for me too.

And I love that it lends really sort of happily to success, leaves clues because you're not alone and there are other people who have done it thank you so much, Steve, for being on the sort of share podcast.

Outstanding. Thanks, Summer.

Bye now.

I want to thank Steve Bolan once again for being on the podcast. What a great conversation. What a fun time. It was so cool having him on the show. And of course, you know, the, the many things that come across our plate when somebody is just an expert in their field. So this one, it's lucky it's only 20 minutes. You can listen to it again and you can, you can pop it on in the car and just really collect all of the great stuff. Steve was was saying on this episode. If you yourself are sitting in a position of the potential, feeling like you're meant for greater, feeling like you could do something in the world, but you don't yet know how to get started, I encourage you to check out my base camp community. It's going to be down in the show notes. I'll make sure that's down there along with all the great stuff for Steve Boland and of course to to my regular website and all that stuff down there. But this is really a community that I'm trying to get started so that people can see their support out there. You're not alone and success leaves clues. All right, that does it for me once again. If you have a story to tell, shoot me an email at sort of surepodmail.com later days.

Sam SA.